OOC discussion on Retainers/Watch/Lawfulness
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This discussion is about whether it is OOC good for the RP environement.
It is -NOT- about whether it is IC correct for the actions described.The server goes through cycles.
sometimes it's the "Iron Rule of Law". Sometimes its the "Wild West".
We've recently been through a definite period of WildWest.
With the new houses and retainers showing up, there is a new surge of "law" showing up.With that, on several occassions, we have various retainers attempting to semi-assume power over people, almost as if they are mini-watchmen.
An example is demanding searches (when not in estates). And NPCs going along with this.Along with that, we have the announcement of at least one Noble auxiliary corps. That brings yet more numbers of PCs into direct alignment ith that house.
Importantly, we have a SMALLER playbase than in past times. Retainers, especially if we have two "law and good" houses working together, represent a large percentage of people in a timezone.
Will the above items lead to:
1. Elimination of informal conflict. It might drive all criminal/evil elements to only exist when banded together, because they have to, to survive. e.g. leading to a two-party system. And thats boring.
2. Because evil/criminal will be at mercy of retainers in the city, will there be a tendency to "gank" retainers/law when out of it?
3. Zero conflict, leading Arabel to a state where we have Heroes fighting DM plots, and thats it.Keep in mind, the discussion is about the OOC direction aspects and how it affects the server. IC events were only mentioned as a example of the "power" the retainers are trying to exert.
Example of possible discussion points I'd like to see:
Should non-House NPCs tell retainers to keep their noses in their estates?
As some (e.g.Wyvernspur) are "new" to Arabel, might they be considered as newly-come title-purchased wannabes?
Would House Maleen find it more difficult to get cooperation from PDs or Watchall of the above, to me, seem to represent ways to keep the environment more alive.
EDIT: I'd like to add that I was not invoved AT ALL on EITHER side, in any of this, nor have I even witnessed it when logged on. It's more a concern of a couple months from now than anything happening now. -
Personally, as a guy who usually plays the villain, I love for these players to enforce their will etc, making things dangerous for the criminal/shady types.
This is simply my opinion and others may not agree.
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A few things to note.
Laws may or may not be clear, but regardless, PCs and NPCs are subject to their personal motivations and will act according to however the hell they act. So there's no reason to discuss "whether or not they can legally do that" out of character, and only in character. I am aware that isn't the point you're making, just to address the eventual discussion.
I can't help but notice that the two-party system you're afraid of hasn't ever really been the case, and is most definitely observably not the case now. Gentles represents one party, the Rat Court another, and (at the moment) team good another. Note that there isn't much interaction with the noble houses at the moment, it's just retainers and retainers, we haven't had much NPC direction if any, as of yet. Once the viceroy arrives, I expect conflict to enter full swing between the Houses. While not open violence in the street, I do expect scheming against one another, though they will perhaps agree on cases of law and crime.
The only time I can even remember when team evil was totally unified as a playerbase was when House Bhaliir was fighting in the civil war, and this was another case of multiple parties. Five in fact, not two. Tymoran militia, DeSchurr, Thond, Bhaliir and the Crown (which eventually became only 3 parties).
Should non-House NPCs tell retainers to keep their noses in their estates?
Depends on the NPC entirely. Some may support lawful rule, some may support criminal elements.
Historically, team law has been crippled by due process in apprehension of criminals. This is also why the situation that this topic spawned from, gave Tael and his buddy a chance to escape. Team law was there to get proof and give the proof to the Watch, not to capture team evil. It just turned into a fight when team evil was attacked by NPCs.
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Honestly, I thought from the briefs they be at each others throats more than they are currently tbh.
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Historically, team law has been crippled by due process in apprehension of criminals.
Well yeah after they stopped warwizards casting dominate person and making them confess all there crimes.
As to the rest currently we have retainers as questing buddies if they do anything outside of those quests ive not seen any of it in my time zone so can't comment on the different houses inter faction conflicts if any,probably best to just wait and see.
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Considering I know the plan for v4.5 to v5.0 I'd say that what you will see is this:
A). A period of calm is coming while the city rebuilds, old plots wrap up, we introduce our first Metafaction (which was entirely not planned for actually and so is happening in real time–hence delay getting the nobles set up, introducing the watch, putting the Viceroy in etc).
B). A period of calm will rise to a heightening of tensions and competition between the noble houses.
C). Unexpected stuff will lead to splits in current alliances, rivalries will grow into full blown feuds, etc.
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I for one really like this approach. Having played for a while on various servers, I enjoy it most when plots have a cycle to them. Big plot build up, tension rise, lots of major server affecting events, finale, cool down period, slow start to the next big plot build up. It gives people a chance to catch their breath as a player (or DM), role up a new character with plenty of time to develop them before the next major plot swing, try out new fun ideas they dont expect to last a long time, and also gives the server's plot a sense of reality.
Why do those two Houses now hate each other? Oh right there was a three month long build up to a full blown hatred with 20+ incidents leading to the current reality. Why do others do all they can to keep the hatred between the Houses (if not part of the blood feud), oh right when the Houses where united they pretty much ran rough shod over the city. Why are others working to heal to breach between the Houses so hard, oh right when the Houses were united the Houses were pushing the city in a direction the healer really liked. You get the idea, it goes on and on and makes thing have a lot of depth from my experience.
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I don't see any of this as an OOC problem. I was the losing/victom party of the incident in question and it is a completely IC conflict. PC's dislike other PC's and it makes total sense for differnt personality types to conflict with others. Overall my character might not like the current direction IC but OOC it doesn't really matter, most IC consiquences come from IC actions.
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I am playing evil now -because- there looks to be a central good power. I have missed the good vs evil dynamic of old coa lore something fierce, and welcome it back. Not the last several years haven't been fun and filled with good stories, I just think it got stale, as the whole central power thing did before it.
I would let things pan out. Don't forget that we also have DM's who lived through the past as well, and can now adjust accordingly knowing what they know now.
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I hope plots and arcs don't center solely around the factions and houses. Not all of us have interest in the political plots and feuds.
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@Khamal:
I hope plots and arcs don't center solely around the factions and houses. Not all of us have interest in the political plots and feuds.
Neither do all DMs.
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Truth.
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Back on topic: I really think that most DM faction characters feel some kind of a special entitlement. Remember how Stark Wyverns and Harts also tried to police people? So i don't think that it's a new trend and there are any changes in this regard.
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Another point to make, even if the law might appear strong, they really are not at the moment. Tael got away from the situation without loosing too much face, and he would probably know better than to carry bloodstones in the City proper. Rat King slipped away from prison, that alone says a lot about the current weakness of the law…
Only known criminals and associates are subjected to the retainers' searching, for a specific suspicion. And they've taken steps to get the needed support from NPCs to do so from what I know, even if they are not city officials themselves.
I get that this might put out a lot of the fun from playing those character, but use it as an opportunity! Have someone start spreading lies and rumours about the retainers that would make it hard for them to work together? Or talk with the involved players OOCly how to make this more fun for all involved?
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Rat King slipped away from prison, that alone says a lot about the current weakness of the law…
Again, on CoA, unless DMs descide it's time to kill a character, criminals always escape from prison.
When i played a sheriff i've never put people in jail because it just doesn't work.
Hopefully this will change in v5 where prison system will be redesigned. -
Prison is also extremely boring, exile, penal legion, naked manticore wrestling in the helmlands, and bringing in another know criminal/leading them into a trap are much more fun as punishments. It's a game man, sitting in a cell in a game sucks. That's why you always miraculously manage to hide a lockpick in your pants in oblivion, or can just click 'Skip jail sentence' You can stare at a wall at home if you want.
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I actually understand that and agree with you Zool.
Just wanted to note that people are escaping from prison not because of ineffectiveness of City Watch and weakness of the law. It's just a ooc arrangement CW has to stick to, not to rob criminals of their piece of fun. -
People OOC escaping jail because players decide to let them out is a bit weak in my mind. DMs don't want jail escapes easy and simple and "expected". We are creating better, more entertaining ways to handle jail, but 'escape' isn't easy. Solus tried pretty hard to get out of jail, he did have a chance, but didn't make it.
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Also i would not take lightly the prison escapes that i have witnessed. The 2 i've been behind were HUGE events involving tons of players, combat, planning etc…
It's not like it's an everyday occurrence.
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Only known criminals and associates are subjected to the retainers' searching, for a specific suspicion. And they've taken steps to get the needed support from NPCs to do so from what I know, even if they are not city officials themselves.
....The discussion has veered from the OOC aspects of what this can lead to to whether it's IC or has gotten IC support.
Retainers are not city-wide, or even district-wide police. They are not city officials. Now, that is a IC issue, and can be handled IC.My bringing it up is that (apparently) if they start acting that way, that "suspicious" people, will strike back in the means they have, and I believe that we will have escalation to a situation of ganking wars. Thats not particularly fun for the victims, and rather short-term fun for the winners.
Having said that - thats if the situation remains/gets worse. We've heard from Dms that change is on the way.
