Druids: Wider Picture or Tunnel Vision?
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(Disclaimer: This is in no way an attack on any characters or any players, it is simply a discussion I wished to start after an event the other night.)
Alright, druids… wisdom based classes, right? IMO they should be a "see the bigger picture" type of character. This idea was put into question after something that happened in an event the other night.
Group X is sent to capture, not kill, a devil. A druid is with group X and did not leave the quest area when they heard the orders the rest of the group received. Druid knows that group X is gathering information and will be fighting the new infernal threat and the druid has been told capturing this devil will aid in the effort.
Druid still does not leave the group and eventually the devil is located. Devil is successfully captured and on the way back begins taunting druid.
Druid gives in to the taunting and kills the devil before group X can stop them.
Yes, druids should not tolerate "outsiders" on this plane but wouldn't they see the bigger picture? By killing this devil they allowed more to continue to come through and delayed the efforts of group X in finding a way to secure the veil and stop more from coming in.
Just made me think. IMO a druid would want to see the area balanced and if allowing one devil to survive so that in the end the knowledge gained from it could stop more from coming, they would allow it to live. Killing it seems counter productive to me.
Please keep this discussion mature and troll-free. No attacking other players or characters. That is not what this post is about.
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IMO, that is related to the characters personality and not their class/stats.
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Hmm, I could see a couple of good reasons why this played out like it did. Perhaps the druid was taunted well enough and just gave in. Or the druid is evil and not only works against outsiders but also the faction that would have gained a benefit from capturing the devil. Or he doesnt believe the faction that they will use the devil but rather fears that they may "screw up". Or he was so wise that he recognized that no good can come from dealing with a devil and all attempts so far have failed miserably so its best to not have the next noobs try it again.
At the end, roll with it. See if you find any RP hooks to build friendship/hate/.. with the druid. :D
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@Broken:
IMO, that is related to the characters personality and not their class/stats.
I disagree - this is an often used point of action by players (Based on what I have read on several posts) when in fact a character with a high mental attribute like Wisdom would be able to see the long term effects of their acts. Putting aside personal preferences for the sake of doing the Wise thing is what Wisdom is about. There are plenty of historical examples of individuals who would be deemed to have a high wisdom that have behaved thusly.
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If they killed the devil after being taunted into it by him, then yes, it sounds like an IC reaction rather than subtly sticking along with the group with the intent of sabotaging its efforts in the end; the devil picked out a weak spot and managed to exploit it - clearly, druids or any character who is already uncertain about a course of action is easier to manipulate than someone who is acting naturally and instinctively.
Whether or not the druid saw the long-term plan is irrelevent, it would be no different than a devil coaxing someone else already acting against their natural instinct into giving in to their baser desires. Surely low wisdom characters would be even easier to manipulate, but that doesn't mean high wisdom characters are impossible to - especially when they are less than convinced that what they're doing is right by their code or morals.
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Exactly what Lizard-Man said.
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I think either decision the Druid could have made could be considered wise.
Was it a sure thing that the information the Devil would give would be true/helpful? In what manner was the information going to be gained? How much does the druid know about this infernal threat? Is it certain at this point that the infernal threat is the true danger to upset the balance- what about the people fighting the threat?
I do think the specific Druid's alignment/personality have a lot to play in a scenario like this. I think a very strong argument could be made for either choice being the "right one" for a high wis druid.
It sounds like this was some cool grey area that now other characters have lots to react to.
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I'd point out that a druid is never breaking an oath if he banishes any outsider, be they infernal or celestial.
The moment they decide to let them be for the "greater good", they start walking on shaky ground. If this "greater good" doesn't pan out, they might get into a lot of trouble with their God.
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In the druid Defense the Devil was taunting the druid quite a bit before that happened, I say it more player against stats as well as personal oath.
(we failed a mission it happens not all is a victory it was rped out fun fun) -
No druid would allow a demon to be captured alive, any more than they would allow a vampire or slaadi. You'd have to be really convincing to persuade a druid to allow such an outsider to live - likely with the explicit promise that it be destroyed/banished once the demon has exhausted its uses.
If it were my druid, I would have killed the demon too. At the very least, I would have strongly disagreed with capturing the demon and made sure to follow up on what is being done to keep it from escaping. I also would demand to be present to witness the demon's destruction (and probably demanded it be killed in 3 days or enact some kind of consequences to the other characters). As a druid, I would have been all over this like white on rice.
From an OOC perspective, I would have allowed the demon to be captured to allow the other players their "victory" and fun. I'm catching a little bit of bitterness OOC regarding this issue…
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There was no OOC bitterness at the actions implied.
I was told OOC by the player though that the druid oath is "set in stone" on this server so there could have been no other alternative. That is what bothers me.
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From an OOC perspective, I would have allowed the demon to be captured to allow the other players their "victory" and fun. I'm catching a little bit of bitterness OOC regarding this issue…
While consideration for others' fun like this is expected and appreciated, the DMs do not want to break a character over it. I would be very disappointed if conflict and disagreements stopped completely because players don't want to antagonize anyone. All we ask is that some common sense be applied in situations.
I oversaw the situation, and in my view, the druid made her choice; Right or wrong, the long term consequences is for future events to determine; But she made a choice and stuck with it, which I appreciated, causing (hopefully) some far reaching conflict in the future as the plot progresses.
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I was told OOC by the player though that the druid oath is "set in stone" on this server so there could have been no other alternative. That is what bothers me.
No. That's silly. That whole Initiated and their oaths/values and such died with Eliphas and Gurm. Druids are all different.
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This is a good discussion, which I think could cross over into many different scenarios. Some of the best characters are the ones that struggle with there own oaths and duties, because often you don't have a clear cut idea of what your 'supposed' to do in any given situation anyways. Does a paladin give up a criminal if he suspects the courts of being corrupt? Does evil warlock end up betraying his evil buddies because he refuses to kill someone he counts as a friend? Does the druid kill the demon or work with a group to extract information from it to prevent an even greater threat? Choices like these are what give that extra bit of life to a character, ones where you don't know what the 'right' answer is so you just have to go with your gut and decide what your character would do in such a situation. I know when I played my druid that I spent a lot of time agonizing over decisions, and a lot of the time I ended up screwing things up, but that was really half the fun of it.
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The Multidute Eliphas and Gurm all had different oaths the Multidute was a bit more extremist then Gurm ever was but oaths are not "set in stone"
What the druid did was a fair decision on the druid part. -
I was there.
I do not condemn the decision, it was IC, no worries.
What troubled me is the perspective that druids, and clerics, all must be archetipal. Specially in high levels.
In my point of view it is the contrary, each druid can enforce his oath in their way and with different degrees.
So as the Cleric's dogma.
I would hate to think that the divine classes must be so strict while all others allow a great diversity.
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Clearly the Druid failed her Concentration check..
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Druids and Clerics are all susceptible to falling from their gods good graces for failing to act correctly. While sometimes making a wrong choice here or there gives flavor enough of them and trust me you lost your favor and have to work your but to get it back.
The cleric druid and paladin classes are very tough classes to play on a character lvl but also as I see them the most rewarding.
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I'd point out that a druid is never breaking an oath if he banishes any outsider, be they infernal or celestial.
The moment they decide to let them be for the "greater good", they start walking on shaky ground. If this "greater good" doesn't pan out, they might get into a lot of trouble with their God.
I quite disagreee, rather than trouble with the God, the first affront would be to their code, it is their code and their vows that turn them into a druid and in someway sacrifice such things to get powers from nature.
The druids do not serve their Gods they serve the Greater Balance. Even outsiders , devils and demons have a part to play in the cosmos of the Balance; hence banishing them isn't always the RIGHT way. shrugs
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Druids serve the balance and take oaths, and are definitely not direct servants of their Gods. But druid magic is still divine, and derives from deities. Oathbreaking would cause their deity to withdraw their spells from the druid. Not unlike paladins in that respect.
As for the outsider thing, there's really a lot of ways to interpret it. What I said is how -I- saw it, but the other views on how to go about it are far from wrong. The higher cosmic balance is something very powerful druids would be seeing; The balance of the multiverse, and not just Toril. For a rookie, I'd say he'd start of lower; At the very least, recognizing that outsider entities do not belong in the Prime Material plane by his viewpoint.
But really, it's not possible to railroad such a complex task as maintaining the balance into how anyone "should" act. All these interpretations might well be equally valid, and that's what makes them so very interesting to watch.
Remember, even druids take up arms against other druids whom they feel are straying.