Charisma
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I'm seeing lots of interpretations of the stat lately, but most seem to lean in the direction of charisma=looks, period. I was thinking maybe we could have a healthy discussion about what this stat means and its significance, as well as how to best portray it.
For reference, here is the wikias description:
Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.
All characters benefit from having a high charisma when speaking with others in the world.So how do you think the stat should be portrayed? What means do you use to portray it? Will a charismatic person be able to lead better than the gruff 8 Cha lv 10 fighter everyone knows can kill anything alone? Does charisma matter at all or is it only mechanical power and political power that is significant? Can a person with low charisma easily gain much political power?
Discuss! And try to keep this from becoming a rant thread.
Examples of characters successfully portraying charisma (both high and low) are welcome. -
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All characters benefit from having a high charisma when speaking with others in the world.
Going by this definition (which I like the sound of as a what-should-charisma-result-in) I would say that a high charisma should just make a person more responsive and willing to engage in conversation, wheras a low charisma soldier - even if he can single-handedly take down hordes of undead without breaking a sweat - would be a deal more anti-social, actively pushing himself away from conversation and social engagement, deliberately or not.
So a high charisma character can/does make use of social skills simply because they have the capacity to pursue conversation to such extents, while a low charisma character is, for whatever reason - whether it's physical repulsiveness, disgusting and visible habits or just outright disinterest or even opposition to communication - stops them dead.
In short: high charisma = extroverted, low charisma = introverted. Even the ugly half orc might try making jokes and witty comments to get people to consider becoming closer to him, if his charisma warrants it. That's my two cents.
(on the other hand, vanilla Ghouls have 16 charisma. >_>)
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Some etymology might help. The word is χαÏ
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@--lizard-man--:
(on the other hand, vanilla Ghouls have 16 charisma. >_>)
You have to get people close to you to devour their entrails. :D
But yes, I agree with much of what you're saying. I also think it signifies a persons willingness to speak out in a crowd and how good it is able to talk in a way that makes people listen (be it crowds or a normal conversation).
Whereas a low-charisma person would often answer short and disinterested (or unconfident) a more charismatic person would lead the conversation more into his own direction or at least respond in a way that kept the talk going. -
Examples of those with high/low cha?
Since we don't know if the bard who is leading us around has 10 cha or 18, it can be hard to use that as a comparison.Perhaps it should be termed 'People who I'd follow to hell and back'
and; 'People I'd gladly leave tied up on their doorstep'
The former catagory, to me, would include Leo Heartshield and that's about it. Timezones prevent me from meeting most other cool people.
The latter?
Just about every pc who acts like some gruff war vet and can win a stare down with a basilisk.The charisma stat doesn't have much of a mechanical use, so it tends to be side lined, noteably for front liners, but it also takes a good player to get the best use of the stat and it can be a bit situational too.
A cha 12 fighter might be a better leader in an invasion, but the cha 15 bard might win the political battle a week later. -
Perhaps it should be termed 'People who I'd follow to hell and back'
That's how I'd see it, myself. A low charisma person can be in a position of power, he can get people to fall in by convincing it benefits them, etc. but he'll never have a fanatical following hanging on his every word, because he doesn't exude the air of "I know what I'm doing, and you know that too, deep down." A person with good charisma has the ability to make you believe in them.
In CoA terms, however, I'm not sure charisma alone denotes ability to lead. It's perfectly possible for a rogue with 8 charisma to have 10 persuade, bluff, and intimidate. Which means he's good at playing people by virtue of skill, rather than raw social talent.
On the other hand, a person with high wisdom would denote someone who's self-assured, which can also aid in attracting a following, and makes for good leaders, who are respected because they make the right calls.
People with no social skills/intelligence/wisdom might nevertheless have a massive reputation in their field to fall back on, and get followers that way. In this case, you might imagine growing up hero-worshipping XYZ because he has done XXX, but when you meet him in person, you're a bit surprised he's a total jerk.
So, I tend to see charisma as the ability to get people not just to believe you, but to believe in you, without necessarily having evidence to justify it. And more importantly, how much you believe in yourself. That's how I interpret charisma giving boosts to UMD, and being the factor in bard/sorcerer spellcasting.
They just have total faith in themselves that the magic they're playing around with will work, supremely confident that nothing can go wrong, which is how they channel magic. Simply by willing it, with the absolute belief that it'll come. It's also how I justify that a sorcerer with 13 charisma won't cast 4th level spells; He doesn't believe sufficiently that he can handle that.
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Charisma is a measure of how much of a people person you are, and your degree of confidence and appearance.
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I don't think charisma has anything at all to do with how good you look, just your ability to USE your looks to get what you want.
You can be gorgeous as all hell, but if you have a bad attitude, you have a low charisma.
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If you're good looking, people tend to initially treat you better. And you can be a snobbish asshole and still be an excellent leader(and I don't mean the decision-making part of it).
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In RL, charisma is like pornography….you know it when you see it. I think it's the hardest ability to RP because if you don't have it in RL then I don't think you can pull it off IC. And visa versa.
Just my 2 cents but I know I can't figure out how to RP high charisma so I know for example I shouldn't play a sorcerer. To me at least this seems insoluable. -
Roleplaying high charisma is easy. Roleplaying low charisma is what's hard!
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It is weird that charisma stat differences only make a very small difference to skills like persuade and bluff. Those too skills while useful to a leader are not as essential as charisma though to me.
Charisma is a quality that makes people around your character to look up to him and admire him wit less effort. It is force of personality. One might be evil but with his charisma make even the goodlies around him hard to hate him.
Thus it is a much more important quality for a leader than the social skills.
It also has to do with what the character thinks of himself. He trusts his abilities for what they are, be it miraculously talented or completely worthless, he has faith in himself, and that is one of the things others admire about such a man/woman.
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Roleplaying charisma (like most RP skills) is tough since you can't really measure force of personality or ability to lead. You can't say that since you have 18 CHA, 10 people will follow your lead or since you have 10 CHA, only that one person will follow your lead. There is no norm.
Generally, I follow the definition lizard-man gave i.e. High CHA = extroverted, Low CHA = introverted. This stat really comes to life when you're faced with decisions. For example, a horde of orcs is fast approaching your position and you need to act fast. Characters with low charisma would not be able to keep the same calm as one with a higher charisma, and no, I don't think being a veteran of a hundred campaigns gives you the right to make calm calculated decisions if you don't have the points in this stat, but it all comes down to the players' willingness to RP it that way and enforcing such behaviour is upto the DMs. I say this because there was a time when our group was facing a gibberling horde and my character was calmly passing comments and the DM in charge kindly reminded me that the character was facing a horde of disgusting unstoppable creatures hell bent on eating his flesh, he shouldn't be that calm :wink:
Bottom line, you can't really use those numbers (stat points) to measure force of personality and ability to lead. I'd say don't worry too much about it and RP it as you see fit i.e. play your char, you know the characters' personality, play it, leave the ability modifiers and their implications to the DMs.
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You can't play 18 CHA if you don't actually have it, that is true.
But if you do have 18 CHA and play it while your stat sheet says 8, there's going to be an attack by the troll-Gods.
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To use county's orc horde example. As I view it, a high wisdom would mean an ability to keep your wits about you, while a high charisma would be able to influence your team members.
1. Say for instance, you have decent wisdom and high charisma, you character would go something like "Come on friends! We've seen worse odds than this, and our undying faith in good and each other will pull us through whatever hardships lie ahead! Find your courage and stand with me, and Tyr will guide our blades!"
2. An equally high wisdom character, but with low charisma would be more of "C'mon! We can kill them! Don't stand moping you idiot! We're going to fight them! Why are you all whining? This is stupid! Fight damn it!"
Wisdom and charisma are often closely related, but have different affects on some things.
3. A low-wisdom covard with still high charisma could go something along the lines of "Oh gods! They are so many! We have no chance to fight off so large a horde! We're doomed! Doomed! Lay down your blades, this is hopeless! Give in before they tear us all into pieces!"
4. And an equally low-wis person could also successfully encourage the party in the same way as 1. but with other words and different reasoning.
A low-wisdom low-charisma person would likely just give in and lie down to die.
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This is where I'd respectfully disagree with you smurfen. Now this is just my take on charisma and by no means an accepted standard. I would, in the same example, view charisma as a helper stat. Here's how:
1. High CHA, High INT - Char would calmly survey his surroundings, devise a plan for defense, deploy available troops at defensible positions etc. In general, prepare a plan for defense.
2. High CHA, High WIS - He'd probably look at his options, possibly call for backup and gauge their chances of taking on the horde themselves.
3. Low CHA, High INT/WIS - At best, he'd be able to come up with a simple defense plan but nothing elaborate as the pressure would get to him, nor would he have the presence of mind to evaluate his options.
4. High CHA - Without the other RP stats to help him, he'd take on the role of a good leader and start delegating tasks i.e. Someone to form a strategy, someone to evaluate their strengths etc.
This is just my take on the stat and how I'd play it. It is, of course, not the only way to play the stat.
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In short, I view CHA as the ability to perform under pressure. Diplomats need high CHA IMO because they're always under pressure and losing their cool could cause disastrous results.
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@Excerpt:
INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, AND CHARISMA
You can use your character’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores o guide you in roleplaying your character. Here are some guidelines (just guidelines) about what these scores can mean.
A smart character is curious, knowledgeable, and prone to using big words.
A Character with a low Intelligence mispronounces and misuses words, has trouble following directions, or fails to get the joke.
A Character with a high Wisdom score may be sensible, serene, “in tune,â€
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I disagree that a gruff or rude character automatically has low charisma, as such qualities can come from hostile and/or uncivilized upbringings.