Events of the Fire
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A recurring theme to my most conflict oriented characters appears to be winning PvP, not FDing those I beat, and then getting FD'd as a direct result within minutes by those same PCs. I consider this to be the worst possible form of exploitation imaginable, because it isn't cheating the module for xp or gold, it's cheating another player out of his character and or plot.
My intention isn't to lay blame right now. But to bring to attention that this is the sort of behavior that some years ago, turned me into an ALWAYS FD MODE player. Kill players first, and ask for DM raises later as needed. This prevents cheating and protects me. I mostly just want people to recognize that if you're subdued, you aren't in fighting condition. With the exception of perhaps the most powerful healing magic, and I mean a Heal potions or more. This is especially true when one person defeats many. He literally can't keep them all down without FDing.
So, please consider this in the future. More importantly, this should be the default server policy without direct DM permission.
My anger tonight, I feel justified in, but not in my outburst afterword. I don't respect players that let themselves get worked up as I did, and for that I'm sorry. I had a particularly emotional event in real life mere hours before logging in, and think there was some fallout, but it doesn't excuse the open contempt I showed.
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I understand and agree. This has happened to me as well where players have gotten up to fight me not once, but twice or three times. Or they have escaped due to my choice to not kill them and abusing the subdue mechanic. This behavior did once lead to certain actions on my part ICLy that I later regret. I think your reaction was fairly tame, all considered.
The problem is that the people doing this sort of bad sportsmanship are being rewarded for it, because they end up 'winning.'
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that noone on our side really even largely considered that such an event would end in fd for anyone. I certainly did not intend for it to end that way. It was hard to tell, but I was told to stand down during that pvp and I did, though I was feared about 30 seconds after I did which made it difficult to tell.
The two pvp events were also separated by almost a half hour or more, which did include scenes where we tended to the wounded, caught our breath, and were perfectly willing to talk out the rest of the encounter. That obviously didn't happen, but I'm going to say that in my opinion those two pvp events were separated by enough time and action to warrant counting them as completely different events (especially given how the considerable subdual debuffs I had had since long worn off.)
Noone "rejoined" pvp in my opinion. They were very clearly from my perspective two separate events that were separated by scenes of recovery, talking, and cooperated action getting out of the House. That's how I feel about the mess, and I think that distinction is important when we look at what turned out to be the mess that it did.
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I don't remember seeing you get FDed in EITHER of the situations, but otherwise I agree with Hellz. There was a large portion of time between the two fights.
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I don't remember seeing you get FDed in EITHER of the situations, but otherwise I agree with Hellz. There was a large portion of time between the two fights.
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You were all beaten to an inch of your life and had to be carried out to be saved from dying in a fire, while unconcious. Within 1 minute, you then were up again and joined another player in attacking me. I'm willing to say you didn't consider the actions, but they were definitely exploitative of the subdual system. It isn't about losing, it's about losing when the something shouldn't even be happening.
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The events between being subdued and the second bout included, but are not limited to-
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Being helped up, tied up, and healed
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Being untied to help escape
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Aiding in breaking down the door
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Getting off the roof (Under my own power in my case, as overseen by DMs)
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Tending to the wounded, including those injuries sustained in the falls
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Escorting bystanders away from the fire
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Entering the Spire whereupon we were trying to figure out what just had happened.
It was at this point that the second pvp happened. As I recall (though my memory of the actual fight is fuzzy at best,) the only person actively involved in that pvp that had actually been downed was me- I take full responsibility if I broke some unspoken rule, but I think that the time and events that separated these events, especially the stops to tend to wounded and speak with people who were only semi-involved, warrant this to be considered two separate events. There was a not insignificant time between the first engagement and the second.
It is REALLY important that we draw a line as to what constitutes one singular pvp engagement. We lost inside the Estate, yes, but after we lost we were not only allowed but encouraged to heal our wounds from said engagement, we then helped physically escape from the Estate, where we once again were able to stop and tend to wounded. All of this was done under DM supervision, and at no point was I told "you cannot do that" by the DM team or by players. I agree, that you should not reengage in pvp once you've been down. I disagree that it is the case in this particular case, and if players truly feel like it is so, then we need to decide on exactly how much time and action needs to pass after a person is subdued that they are allowed to continue, and the DM team should, perhaps, lengthen the time it takes to recover from being subdued considerably.
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Doesn't the subdual system impose mechanical penalties to characters to represent the kicking they got?
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It does, but the debuff wears off after about 10 minutes or so.
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If someone stands monologuing for 15 mins then you have every right to get up and kill them.
Ive gone along with this unspoken rule before now only to be killed and full looted because another player was worried they may not get the big W. -
I'm pretty sure that arguing against what Golw is trying to say is the same thing as arguing for bad guys to just kill instead of subdual.
I always thought the rule was that you had to stay down if someone subdualed you in pvp, but some of the things said here make me think that it was more of an unwritten rule.
I guess its time to break out the pen?
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CF it's a lot more complicated then that. Golw is making it out that we jumped up and started beating on him after it wore off. Lots happened in between. I even asked spiffy if I did something wrong and he told me that we didn't.
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That's funny, because I was told the opposite.
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If you have an issue with the way something went down, you need to talk to a DM in a private IRC or forum discussion. This isnt the right format for such.
Locking the thread since it's turning into a gripe-fest.