Spoilers and Secrets Petition
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It came up in IRC specifically over HellzYeah's forum posts with spell reagents.
To post IG secrets either mechanical, plot, setting or otherwise are not wrong, but do damage the spirit of the game. This server has long been about the journey, not the destination. I have thoroughly enjoyed testing reagents and spells to figure out how to cast new spells. I know others have as well. That this information is slowly becoming common knowledge is not a problem, that it's being put on display for all players to see in a permanent format that can never be lost or damaged (THESE FORUMS) is a problem to me.
If someone went into IRC and posted all of the portal words, or all of the spell reagents and base spells, or all of the summoning reagents, or how to access very secret places and dungeons that require special items to unlock (those exist by the way), DMs would throw a fit. Because this is being done ICly, it's a little different, but the same train of thought applies, in my opinion. It would be a little different if these secrets are posted in faction forums, or player forums. However they're in the library which any player (even those without forum accounts) can see.
I don't think it's a problem for a few to be out there, but honestly, I don't like it being so easily seen. There's no mystery about that stuff anymore and there won't be again. I enjoy working with other PCs to figure out reagents and exchanging special knowledge with others. Honestly, I've traded alterations with Seter a few times, it's fun. I like the prestige it brings too. As a player and a PC, I had the luck and patience to unlock this secret, and now it's blown because someone thinks its boring.
DMs have had to change portal passwords in the past, I see that happening with reagents.
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For the same reason that I don't want anyone talking about the new star wars movie or the latest game of thrones episode, the book/show will still be a great read either way but it still ruins it for everyone to know the outcome before they get to it themselves.
There are people who actually like to just know the end result or don't want to put the effort in, but for those who enjoy the journey it kindof ruins it to know that there's absolutely no point to what they're doing, because the results were available to everyone.
And for those who already did put in the effort to find something out, it makes their effort feel pointless. When a bunch of people work hard to find out some secrets that they can show off and brag about, then run back to town to show everyone their new trick only to find that no one gives a damn because all of those tricks and more were already published in the library on the forums days ago….yeah, that's a let down.
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I really would wish more people would care enough for the mystery of the server, to keep vital plot information and secrets of the server IC. Make IC books, rather than Forum Books. Trade favors, rather than write them in your journal.
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I disagree. Some things, like portal words, secret doors, are best kept secrtet.
but spell reagents are something that every wizard would be told of from their masters, or be availible in a wizadrting libary.
it should not be "FOIG".
Especially because it gives advantage to veteran reagant players over new ones
now, if there was a system where the reagents were randomized for every wizard at character creation. well. That would be different. -
It came up in IRC specifically over HellzYeah's forum posts with spell reagents.
I will try to keep examples relevant to that post then.
Yes, a player, through IC actions, wrote a book containing 16 spell alterations spread over 6 spell levels of casting.
So what?
If anyone read the entirety of the book they would know it even goes on to say:-
This is an ongoing project, of course. I cannot claim to know every alteration to every spell.
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It is my hope that the wizarding community comes together to aid in the writing of this tome.
It even goes on further outputting Mystras dogma explaining the experimenting to find more on your own is far better than having someone show you.
That post is litterally:
"Here, have a taste of whats out there…".The list of Alterations even hint of further Alterations that exist without spelling it out.Taking the most recent forum ANNOUCEMENT that "All "quartz" alterations are now "bone chips" alteration"
And then looking at the Post in question you will find not a single Alteration that even used "quartz".I think he did a fine job trying to encourage others to test out other reagents to try to find even more Alterations, and also pushes for people to share what they learn.
There is even an addition to the Post in question from a completely different character (as Benedict Ryan wrote the book and the addition is from War Wizard Henri Labelle).HellYeahs' book was IC, and still does not even come close to completely spoiling learning new Alterations for anyone. It is a good example of how to go about IC methods to encourage others to do the same. The book has been up nearly 4 months now, I am sure it would have been removed if it was a problem.
Having said all that, no, I do not think anyone should completely spoil anything from IG via OOC channels ever.
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It's really something only players can police. There's just no way for a DM to police this unless we shut down IRC and start deleting posts, which I'm sure no one really wants.
Since alterations were brought up; I personally don't have a problem with alterations in the library; When I first built them, they were essentially segregated into "common" and "special" ones. NPCs have personally given out "common" ones to PCs for free in the past. If the players want all alterations a secret so they can discover it, then they'd have to ensure that it happened themselves.
I'd also point out that they are essentially "secret" only the first time, anyway. Finding a reagent / spell combo is extremely difficult already; But to be fair on my part, I thought PCs would adopt divide and conquer, not try to get them all solo.
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Games. If it isnt FIOG, why not have the dms post "New spells", in the modul change thread? They are supposed to be FIOG.
Topoftime. The argument against Hellz' post, isnt that it shouldnt be written. But that some of us would rather see the book as an IC one, found in game, traded or sold by Hellz' char, rather than have it on the forum for every former, current or future wizard to, at lvl 1, before creation, knowing half of the alteration spells by heart. That way, it promotes interaction IC, it promotes competition between wizards, and when hellz' wizard is gone, non wizards or old wizards, can trade the information in the book to others. Right now, It is just a list of 16 spells everyone will know. -
I guess it just entices people more to want to do something when you go "Hey, you can do research X if you want" versus having info available on some of X to help some people get started.
People are motivated differently, some are self motivated enough to start from square 1, others need a shove. I see HellYeahs' book as a shove. Does everyone need it? No.. will everyone read it? Not likely.
As long as it was actually available to find IG I do agree it would be a more effective "push", but If you are going to force every bit of knowledge on a topic to IC books only then the only people that will research them are those the did not need that push anyway.
And whats stopping anyone from writing it IG as it is anyway?
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While I support the general idea of this petition, let's all agree not to bring specific instances in this. We all know what constitutes a 'secret' and what the DMs don't really care about keeping 'secret', so let's just use our common sense.
Targeting HellzYeah in this fashion when clearly his book was DM approved, given that it hasn't been taken down, is just silly. DMs have made the decision to let it stand, and that's that.
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I'm going to explain the reason I made (and will continue to make) these books as clearly as I possibly can.
When I made Benedict, I had a huge problem that I eventually had to go to the DM team to clarify.
During all of my wizard characters, I normally dive pretty heavily into alteration testing. It occurred to me, when I started this new character (My third wizard in V5) that I had this repository of Meta-knowledge that I could not get rid of. After discussing it and confirming the knowledge could be IC with a DM, I handwaved the knowledge away with a throwaway line of dialogue meant to justify this meta knowledge.
But, and this is important, as a level 3-4 wizard, who had done zero spell alteration testing on this character, I was approached by a level 8, already established wizard. Who I sold my entire compliment of spell alterations to for a pretty significant sum of gold. This wasn't OOC, as the knowledge was still IC (I had, as I mentioned, checked previously) but I had a huge mechanical and RP advantage over other new players because I had this meta knoweldge from over a year ago.
Maybe I could have used it more responsibly in that case, even if the act was an IC one, but it was here I recognized the flaws and problems inherent in this system. There's no restricting this knowledge- It doesn't go away and there's no enforcement rules for it. In this case, a PLAYER (The distinction here is important, because this information carries over between characters) who has played many mages over the course of two years had this huge advantage over another PLAYER because of his previous experiences.
Once you find a spell alteration, it never goes away, and unless the DMs change the reagents around once a year this will always be the case. Since I'm sure no DM wants to do this ever, I took the task of removing this meta-knowledge from the system in the most IC and fun way I could. I did what this system was always intended to do, which was to create a situation in which mages work together to form a knowledge base. I checked with the DMs before I started writing it. The DM who created the whole system (The same one who gave me the okay to use the meta-knowledge) and others gave me the okay to start writing it. I made explicitly sure this was okay before I went ahead and even wrote the thing.
I recognize that this might take the fun out of the system for some- But to me, the benefits of removing the OOC knowledge advantage that older players have over newer players takes precedent over that.
That said I seriously doubt these books will encompass all of the spell alterations that exist. There will remain more to discover, and even if the players who are collaborating with me and I discover every last one I think that it is better to have them all be public knowledge than to have a handful of players with a huge OOC repository of knowledge that can be applied to as many future characters as they want.
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There are certain things I think should remain IG, and certain things that I don't care about being spoiled.
For example. The god Amaunator. Lots of goody things to find and learn about IG. That's awesome, keep that stuff secret. Don't spoil it.
On the other hand, things like where to find certain items, certain quests, etc. I -HATE- it when people tell me to FOIG. It's like "Dude, just tell me where it is. This is fu**ing stupid."
So yeah, certain things that pertain to like lore and stuff shouldn't be spoiled.
Other things like items and stuff? Why the heck would you keep that stuff secret? It was put into the game to be found out about.
If I ask you where something is and you tell me, I'm gunna go find it, learn about it, use it, etc.
If you don't? I'm just gunna give up on it because it's not worth the f-ing hassle of me running around like I'm stuck in a permanent darkness spell. (Aka, blind cause I have no f-ing idea where to go because "it's a secret".) -
I am inclined to agree with golw about this topic.
While I do not seek to diminish HellzYeah's work on this matter I have to say I am not fond of the idea that the Alterations are made fully public for all to see. If it was just an overview of the Alteration name and its capabilities, providing a hint or a riddle as to the reagent and Base spell(While leaving the actual knowledge hidden) it would have been fine/dandy/and great. Because then you still maintain a level of mystery and allowing people to learn it for themselves with more hints.
I doubt a Wizard would freely give this information to other Wizards, after he worked so hard to obtain it. Especially when these other Wizards act like they could not(And pardon my French) be arsed to do the leg work themselves. After all Wizards are those nerdy people who spend years studying and will never give anyone a chance to copy their notes before the test.I spoke with new Wizards in the past and tried to get them interested about researching Alterations and their approach was often: "Meh, cant be bothered".
So why should we now give such information to such people so readily on a silver platter I wonder? And before anyone would go and jump to conclusions that I dont want to share - Thats untrue and certain players can attest that if they come with an attitude to learn I gladly teach.
The way I see it(And this is my own take on this matter) these are the flaws of this approach, of having all the information readily out there:-
It really really really cheapens the countless of hours and work that some of us put into learning all these permutations. If people dont bother to learn these(Despite being encouraged to and despite having actual hints left IG by the DM team) then why must we do the leg work for them and give them all this information before they even made an effort?
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It throws away the possibility of Wizards haggling ICly for such knowledge out of the window. Like golw said often when we both play Wizards and meet ICly, we haggle over sharing our findings - A fair trade. Not for fiscal gain but for another spell - Quid pro quo. In this case everyone already has that information. Additionally, it is understandable for some Wizards to not want to reveal specific spells - It puts them at a disadvantage when they want to have an ace up their sleeves. Its IC and its understandable. Hell, if another Wizards wants to sell this information thats also an IC approach - If a bit tad unimaginative but this IC and acceptable in my eyes.
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Another aspect it throws out of the window is the prospect of PCs actually seeking a PC Master to apprentice under and learn these things, ICly. To me, people who dont want to do this either cant be bothered or are too proud. Why then should we accommodate them? Why not start some form of Guild such as the Old College and have people learn this through RP IG? The Teacher can then go and tell his students: "For this amazingly awesome spell, I will give you my students a task - To find me Ice Diamond which I will then use to further a server-wide plot!".
Just my two cents.
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Keeping things FOIG entirely only acts as a roadbump to new PCs. Unless DMs can randomize reagents so that new PCs by old Players cannot meta them, then I am sorry, but it should be public knowledge.
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I spoke with new Wizards in the past and tried to get them interested about researching Alterations and their approach was often: "Meh, cant be bothered".
"Meh" - That was my feeling when summoning reagents came out, which I think was when I was playing Samantha - I couldn't be bothered. as a lvl 5 wizard, a member of the Guild, a founder of two different mage societies, and apprenticed to two different masters over the space of a year with hundreds of hours of RP as to learning magic/spells (char did not start as wizard - RP'd learning it over several months) it was just -ludicrous- that when some new system is added to the module that existing wizards would not know of common reagents.
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It really really really cheapens the countless of hours and work ….. If people dont bother to learn these.... why must we do the leg work for them and give them all this information before they even made an effort?
It's OOC work, not IC work. We tell people what Monk kits do, and what they get at each level. Why isn't that FOIG also?
Both affect concepts. Hypothetically, lets say someone wants to make a good mage who specializes in cold spells. Later on, they find out that due to how reagants work, fey-blood is great for cold. That sorta affects their concept/build, they might have made a conceot arund wind, not cold. Yet, a veteran reagant player would not have OOC wasted time with a concept that would always be weak. (Unless it was desired.)-
It throws away the possibility of Wizards haggling ICly for such knowledge out of the window…. Additionally, it is understandable for some Wizards to not want to reveal specific spells - It puts them at a disadvantage when they want to have an ace up their sleeves... You can still do that. I couldn't count the number of low level mages who have documented in diaries the effects of standard spells, hired subjects to be targets, discussed and RP'd spell effects with others. And thats when everything was pure vanilla.
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Another aspect it throws out of the window is the prospect of PCs actually seeking a PC Master to apprentice under and learn these things…. Again, no. it throws out the prospect of a PLAYER needing to learn it. Not the Character. And as not all of them are there, why can't the Master tell the students "go find me a new unknown spell reagent and I'll give you a +10 whamdizzle". It just removes one particular form of reward.
Keeping things FOIG entirely only acts as a roadbump to new PCs. Unless DMs can randomize reagents so that new PCs by old Players cannot meta them, then I am sorry, but it should be public knowledge.
Virtually identical to what I wrote in IRC at like 4AM.
In my opinion the PROs of having it be public outweigh the CONs. Keeping it restricted promotes inner-circle-dom, vet vs newb, frustration, grinding when you don't want to. Making it public still allows all RP, still allows learning, you just aren't FORCED into having to learn it that way. And if you enjoy the puzzle, you can still do it. Even OOC. You just will not receive any mechanical advantage for putting in the OOC effort to do so. Thats really what it comes down to.
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It really really really cheapens the countless of hours and work that some of us put into learning all these permutations. If people dont bother to learn these(Despite being encouraged to and despite having actual hints left IG by the DM team) then why must we do the leg work for them and give them all this information before they even made an effort?
Because this information carries with it a mechanical and RP advantage over other players that follows a player over multiple characters. If the system prevented this information from crossing characters, I'd be inclined to agree. But it doesn't, so all you end up getting is a handful of players who have most of the alterations found and can leverage it over newer players in a mechanical and in an RP sense. It doesn't make sense that a day 1 level 1 wizard who has done no testing themselves to somehow have a knowledge greater than an established wizard who is only just now working on system. The books take away this meta-advantage and that's the point.
It throws away the possibility of Wizards haggling ICly for such knowledge out of the window. Like golw said often when we both play Wizards and meet ICly, we haggle over sharing our findings - A fair trade. Not for fiscal gain but for another spell - Quid pro quo. In this case everyone already has that information. Additionally, it is understandable for some Wizards to not want to reveal specific spells - It puts them at a disadvantage when they want to have an ace up their sleeves. Its IC and its understandable. Hell, if another Wizards wants to sell this information thats also an IC approach - If a bit tad unimaginative but this IC and acceptable in my eyes.
The problem is that a lot of these 'ace up the sleeve' spells are VERY powerful and they don't go away when the character you researched or learned them on dies. If the system took this into account, I might be inclined to agree with you. Unfortunately that IC advantage you're speaking of turns into an OOC one the second your first mage ends up in the fugue. This method doesn't take away your power, it just levels the playing field to the players who haven't played three-four wizards in V5.
Another aspect it throws out of the window is the prospect of PCs actually seeking a PC Master to apprentice under and learn these things, ICly. To me, people who dont want to do this either cant be bothered or are too proud. Why then should we accommodate them? Why not start some form of Guild such as the Old College and have people learn this through RP IG? The Teacher can then go and tell his students: "For this amazingly awesome spell, I will give you my students a task - To find me Ice Diamond which I will then use to further a server-wide plot!".
Considering how often you play Wizards I cannot possibly believe you think that Wizards have any problem at all providing incentives for other players to go do things. Wizards least of all. The problem with this state of mind, and one I encountered with my present wizard, is that a level 1 wizard who by all rights -shouldn't- know all of it can upstage a wizard who's been around for months based solely on the experience gained when they played a wizard ten months ago. You can't unlearn this information and the system doesn't really support that because of the nature of discovering these spells isn't tied to a skillcheck or other test. The portal system is a system that is easy to 'forget' because it has a mechanical requirement that is easy to keep track of which ones you 'know' and which ones you don't.
So, you often have players who play wizards a lot having this huge repository of OOC knowledge (That has a considerable impact mechanically and in the RP sense) and being able to use that knowledge to gain the upper hand over other characters. These points are all well and good until you apply them to characters that do not physically IG put in the 'legwork' but know these alterations from previous experiences with the system. That's where the problem lies.
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What if we added a component that was dropped by magical foes and on certain quests? These spell page fragments would not be consumed with alterations, but the alterations would not work without them. There might be some pillar or statues that if you succeed a sufficient amount of spell-craft and lore checks on that would produce the fragments. Killing certain foes in certain quests might drop one. Gilmore's Tower might have a few low level ones. Lair of temptation might surprise you with a few from time to time.
Perhaps they are added to a spell book, like the crafting recipes are?
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It's not my intention to make HellzYeah a target, but it's an elephant in the room. I certainly see nothing wrong with what he's doing, exactly. It's just a weird gray zone with which there are spoilers being posted for IC reasons.
I believe that there is an easy way to solve this disagreement, and it is by making these books published in the game world and keeping them off of the forums. A couple of books being purchased in the book store and books containing the more powerful/rare alterations being found in loot.
In regards to Seter's, of which the gist was: "I tried teaching some new people and their attitude was 'meh", that's another point to build upon. The alterations, they TAKE. WORK. TO. LEARN. They are the same as portal passwords, and exploring the module. The entire spirit of the module is in the journey and not the destination. This has been clarified a hundred times over. Seter goes to the extent of saying that he isn't selfish and wants to share these, but he wants them to be shared in a meaningful way. I agree with that, but I'm willing to say that I am being greedy. I spent a lot of time researching, a lot of time in character exchanging formulas and sharing reagents and failed tests with other wizards. It was a major accomplishment to learn some of these spells. Seeing them tossed on the forums for any random player to know without putting in the time is upsetting. For one, it takes away their quest for knowledge (whether they want it or not), and second it diminishes my accomplishment. Much like a powerful flaming sword that a fighter earns at the end of his personal journey; that sword means nothing if any fighter can go to Temons to buy a duplicate.
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What if we added a component that was dropped by magical foes and on certain quests?
These spell page fragments would not be consumed with alterations, but the alterations would not work without them.
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Perhaps they are added to a spell book, like the crafting recipes are?Excellent idea. Add in that a wizard can research them on their own, and once "found" gets a fragment, and add in that a wizard can "scribe" a fragment they know, just like a scroll, and we have a perfect system to support everything thats been mentioned.
It's not my intention to make HellzYeah a target, but it's an elephant in the room. I certainly see nothing wrong with what
he's doing, exactly. It's just a weird gray zone with which there are spoilers being posted for IC reasons.It's questionable whether it's a spoiler. At one point quests and their locations was considered spoilers.
I believe that there is an easy way to solve this disagreement, and it is by making these books published in the game world and keeping them off of the forums. A couple of books being purchased in the book store and books containing the more powerful/rare alterations being found in loot.
Except it does not solve the issue of Players having the OOC knowledge once gained in one char.
… Seeing them tossed on the forums for any random player to know without putting in the time is upsetting. For one, it takes away their quest for knowledge (whether they want it or not), and second it diminishes my accomplishment...... Much like a powerful flaming sword that a fighter earns at the end of his personal journey; that sword means nothing if any fighter can go to Temons to buy a duplicate.
The reagent system is OOC player knowledge, that has to do with the OCC puzzle aspect of the server. The flaming sword is IG PC thing that is controllable IG by DMs making it available or not. I do not think they are good comparisons. (Portal passwords are good comparisons, however)
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I don't see that as a problem.
A player learning the identity of The Citizen or having ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE MODULE WHATSOEVER is a meta knowledge. This is not avoidable if someone has ever played a single character in the past. Spoilers are.
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I would like to see hellzyeah's book in game, in the spire's library. That way any PC with ooc knowledge can justify it by going there, and any new PC without this knowledge can just interact with other pc's and have the library pointed out to them in character through a pleasant rp.
By putting it in the forum library, all character interaction is completely circumvented and rp is discouraged, It's not the content of the book that's bugging me, it's how the content is being delivered to people that's bugging me.
Alterations were meant to be something that could be either hoarded or shared (in this case it got shared) but the entire point of them is that by sharing them you're now interacting with other pc's and establishing some sort of relation between one pc and another, Putting everything on the forums completely ignores and circumvents that. You could easily make the information available to everyone in an IC book put in an easily accessible location and actually rp it out with people, but instead it's just….bam....there...done.