Chivalric Titles, IRL vs CoA
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Alright, so for quite a while I've been noticing some differences between how titles of nobility in CoA differ from real life. Do the rules of etiquette in real life pertain to CoA and characters get it "wrong" because those characters IC don't know better? Or are there different rules? Or no rules?
Below are the real life etiquette rules, as I understand them. I may be wrong, this is from observation in written works, I don't have a degree in medieval studies or anything.
Knights:
A male knight is "Sir" and a female knight is "Dame". A knight's honorific is applied to the first name only, not the family name, because it is not a hereditary title; i.e. The oldest child of a knight does not become a knight upon the death of the parent holding the title and a knight who marries does not make their spouse a knight automatically by doing so. For example, a knight who's birth name is "Edward Lastname" is addressed as either "Sir Edward" or "Sir Edward Lastname" but never "Sir Lastname". Likewise a knight who's given name is "Laura Lastname" is addressed as "Dame Laura" or "Dame Laura Lastname" but never "Dame Lastname" and never "Sir" anything. Calling knights "Sir Edward" or "Dame Laura" is not being overly familiar. That is their title, even though it involves their first name it's still formal. It's not the same as just calling them by their first names alone. If they're close friends or family, you are allowed to drop the "sir" or "dame" part, but it isn't usually dropped in public.Lords:
A male Lord is called a Lord, a female Lord is called a Lady. There is no such thing as a "Lord Lady", that's like calling someone a "Policeman Woman", (though if commoners took to calling Lady Lhal that and it sort of stuck unofficially I can understand that). If a male is a Lord, either by birth or by being "elevated" to that status by the crown, then his wife automatically becomes a Lady, however, if a female is a Lady then her husband does not automatically become a Lord, he has to earn that for himself. An unmarried woman can, of course, be a Lady in her own right with no husband. She can either be the only child (or oldest with no brothers) of a Lord and Lady who have both died, or she can be "elevated" to that status by the crown. The title is hereditary so it applies to either the family name or the name of the area of land the Lord and/or Lady has in their keeping. So, for example, if a man is named "John Surname" and is responsible for the area of land called "Boogerkeep", then that man may be addressed as either "Lord Surname" or "Lord Boogerkeep" or "Lord Surname of Boogerkeep", but never "Lord John". His wife, Gwen, would be called "Lady Surname" or "Lady Boogerkeep" or "Lady Surname of Boogerkeep", but never "Lady Gwen". Of course, close friends and family drop all the Lord and Lady stuff in private, they don't sit around playing poker over whiskey and cigars and keep on calling each other by their full titles.The title is hereditary. If a Lord and Lady have children, upon the death of the Lord then the oldest male child becomes Lord, even if he has an older sister. A female child attains the title of Lady only upon the death of both parents and only if she has no brothers and is the oldest child (unless, of course, the crown gives her the title for some great deed or something).
So, those are the rules as I understand them from reading a lot of books by English authors where characters have titles. I may have got parts of it wrong. If so, please forgive me, I'm just an American. We don't have a caste system here, just a very few extremely wealthy people running the lives of millions of very poor ones. Um…wait.....
Anyway, what are the rules of etiquette on CoA? Are there any? I now have a character who ought to know them.
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Cormyr does not use the female pronoun for noble titles,so a knight is always a Sir,a lord is always a lord never a lady.
A woman can hold the title of knight or lord as Lord Lhal and Lord Winter does but calling them lady would be an insult.Or this is what ive been led to believe in my time playing here by various DM's.
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I'm not sure what the current title system is exactly…
According to various sourcebooks:
In Cormyr there are a lot of different titles and levels. Some titles her hereditary- those born noble can pass them down, have the right to have a standing militarized force of a certain size, etc. There are special titles- those that are just made up for certain special things that come with neither land nor the ability to pass the title down to heirs and Lhal was an appointed Lord- someone appointed by the crown for special duty to watch over a city and manage the local born noble families for the good of the city. Those positions are appointed by the crown and can not be passed down. I have no idea if Hardcastle is a born noble or was appointed by the crown.
There are also ranks for registered wizards, the Purple Dragons, etc.
To be a knight your title is technically Knight or Lady Knight in Cormyr. Since to be a knight in Cormyr would mean you are an officer in the Purple Dragons you would use that title when interacting outside of court situations. (officially- I've never seen this play out in actual CoA).
The titles of nobility presented here are given in
the Common tongue. Most Cormyreans speak
Chondathan as well. Presented here are the equivalent
ranks in the Chondathan language.
King: Astrel (“Az-trell”)
Queen: Araunna (“Arr-awn-ah”)
Prince: Ardyr (“Ar-deer”)
Princess: Ardess (“Ar-dess”)
Duke: Storn
Duchess: Staerra (“Stair-ah”)
Marchion: Mahrsar (“Mar-sarr”)
Marchioness: Mahrsara
Earl: Velm (“Vel-mm”)
Countess: Velana (“Vell-anna”)
Viscount: Tlarvelm (“Tah-lar-velm”)
Viscountess: Tlarvelana (“Tah-lar-velanna”)
Baron (in Cormyr, includes Baronet): Taen
(“Tayn”)
Baroness (in Cormyr, includes Baronetess):
Taenya (“Tay-nyah”)
Knight: Tahar (“Tah-har”)
Lord: Aro (“Air-o”)
Lady: Arauna (“Air-on-ah”)
Sir: Saer (“Say-ur”)Read the official WotC guideline 12 page book on titles in Cormyr here:
http://www.epicwords.com/attachments/16706Of course we don't follow this rulebook in CoA so things are more learn in game or something?
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Wooo! Nice link, thanks!
Downloaded and saved, I'll give that a read this weekend. Leave it to WotC to make things more complicated than necessary. :P
An official DM ruling on etiquette of addressing nobles on this particular server would be helpful. Is it Sir and Dame or just Sir? Lord and Lady or just Lord? Sir Immanuel or Sir Rathcore? Lord Hardcastle or Lord… forgot his first name?
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Lord is an actual title, the same was Duke is a title. That makes it confusing. To be "Lord of Arabel" means exactly that, and not a catch-all nobility moniker.
Lhal is properly called Lord Lhal, not Lady Lhal, or Lord-Lady Lhal. Properly. But most people refer to her as her popular name "The Lord-Lady" or "Lord-Lady Lhal". In fact, it used to be an insult, but things have mellowed out since then and everyone has forgotten it was an insult, and even she uses it. Maybe because the King started calling her that himself.
When players started getting Cormyrian knighthoods, it started as males and females being both called Sir, but it was decided (fortuitously) that this was far too weird and unwieldy, and female PCs became Dames instead.
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Oh, Regarding Lord "Lastname" I will be using Deschurr as an example. The head of household is "The Lord DeSchurr". He holds the primary title/s of the house. Other DeSchurrians might also be nobles holding fiefs, and they would be called "Lord DeSchurr" as well. Since it would be rare in general to meet more than one Lord DeSchurr in the same room, they would only use "Lord Firstname DeSchurr" if the identities of the DeSchurr they were speaking of was in doubt.
Now, since DM guidance is notoriously undetailed, players (LIKE ME) generally fill in the gaps themselves. Sir Lastname is pretty much coming from our server's fascination with the last(house) name. It does not actually present a problem. When you speak of Lord Bolton, you know who you are talking about. When you speak of Lord Frey, you know who you are talking about.
Sir Frey? Which fricking Frey is that? But we don't have that problem here. Sir Freeman the PC is 100% going to be the only Sir Freeman in Cormyr, period.
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Lord Hardcastle or Lord… forgot his first name?
Lord Malcolm Hardcastle
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I'll adress each of the two apparent confusions with what I've experienced on CoA.
Knights
A knight is called Sir Edward, Sir Edward Lastname, Dame Laura, Dame Laura Lastname etc. according to accurate etiquette. You are correct in your understanding, as far as I know, and calling someone Sir Edward is not a sign of familiarity, it is simply his knightly title.There is however some leeway since not alot of people who play here actually know proper noble etiquette (myself included) and it would not add any fun to anyone, to walk around correcting people, People use sir/dame lastname, because of how we formally adress people in real life. We say Mr/Mrs/Ms Lastname, when being polite. Not Mr Edward or Mrs Laura. (Those are only used as terms of familiarity)
Lords and Ladies
The rule of thumb here, is that a male is called Lord and a female is called Lady (Lord Hardcastle, Lady Winter). They're refered to either by their full name and title (Lord Malcolm Hardcastle) or their surname and title (Lord Hardcastle) and it is discourteous to refer to them by only their first name (Lord Malcolm).HOWEVER, and this is where confusion sets in. Some titles are special. One such title, and the source of this confusion, is Lord of Arabel. There is no Lady of Arabel. The person currently holding the title of Lord of Arabel is, regardless of gender, -Lord- of Arabel and it is by this exception that Myrmeen Lahl's title used to be "Lord Myrmeen Lahl" or "Lord Lahl" inspite of her being female. How this effects her title in the current setting I do not know, perhaps she retains Lord as a throwback to her previous efforts, perhaps she is Lady Lahl now. I will say that any Arabellian over the age of 20 will fondly remember the Lady Lord epitath though.
Disclaimer: This is based on what I've seen to be the most consistent representation of these titles ingame, aswell as some fairly outdated (read 10 years old) clarifications from long since retired DMs, so this may not be true now. If that is the case, please correct me.
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Lords are both female and male
Sirs are both female and maleLords go by their lastname when addressed
"Lord Lhal" "Lord Hardcastle"Sirs go by their lastname when addressed
"Sir Oakwine" "Sir Ravenborn"Some NPCs or PCs may chose a different term, it all depends on it IG. Some may take offence if you utter their title wrong, whilst others wont bat an eyelash. Lady Lord was at the beginning a mocking title of Lhal whom become Lord of Arabel by the death of her husband, however it has grown on her and now is considered a fond name of the hero of Arabel.
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In regards of Lady, I usually use it when it is of a non-head of a house, such as a wife or daughter. But it may be totally wrong, I don't know.
Dame can be used for Knights, but that is more a choice for the person if they rather not go by Sir cause of reasons.